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 BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme

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KoreanRedDragon
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PostSubject: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:15 pm

To begin with, I'd like to encourage everyone to have a look at a pack of BnG map examples I made a while ago. They're randoms made with the game's editor in 10 seconds or so, but a) they're made from double cave maps [think T17] which ensures they're long enough and b) they have a lot of objects on them, meaning you shouldn't run out of hides in 1v1 games. Unlike the really flat maps I've seen some people use, these are not edited. This means some hides will still be a lot higher or lower than others, keeping things interesting and skillful. Anyway, link:

http://host-a.net/KoreanRedDragon/Random%20BnG%20Maps.zip

Second of all, I really think disallowing 5 second grenades unless low gravity is on is a bad idea; they're harder to hit with on impact than 4 second nades at full power and nobody has a problem with those. The only reason that rule was used on WWP was because so many people didn't understand what "sitter" meant and so everyone just told them not to use a 5 second fuse at all. Then once those same people joined leagues as staff members, they made the rule official and the situation basically went to shit. The rule was never, I repeat, never part of the BnG scheme on WA.

I actually have many other problems with the CBC BnG rules, but I guess those are a little less important. Certainly darksiding is poorly defined and I'm not sure if the last rule means you can break the rules twice on purpose, as long as you don't do it a third time.

As far as the scheme goes, I personally enjoy BnG much more when it's played without girders/drills and with infinite teleports/blowtorch/firepunch. That's what the official First Blood scheme was like, but I'm not sure if it was kept by the leagues that came afterwards. Either way, I think it should be considered here at TUT.

Lastly, we had a pretty huge discussion about the scheme as it should be played in leagues and tournaments on the FB forums a while ago that I think most of you didn't take part in. I'd be curious to hear the opinions of those playing BnG today on the subject of NRBnG, but no need to rush things. As far as I know, there weren't any complaints about cheapness in that last BnG tournament GreeN hosted so perhaps taking the rules out of BnG isn't needed right now, but it could make a good competitive scheme anyway. Linkage:

http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1428
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Ramone
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:42 pm

hmm... In my opinion, I guess that no one would like to change "regular" TuT scheme 2-3 days before the cup starts.. maybe we can all try it and consider it for the further tourneys and cups..
anyway, I couldnt find the NRBnG scheme on FB... the link from your post in FB forums leads to "404 Not Found"...

GreeN wrote:
BnG is messy, so upon the beginning of the first round,
I will strictly state the rules of what is, and what isn't allowed

I'll make it as 'noob'-repellent as I can Wink

c'mon GreeN, we're waiting... Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:35 pm

The maps, I completely agree with! A quick (Random) double cave, removing the top and filling the middle creates my personal choice for a BnG map. But I can only recommend this, for I will (As always) allow any map to be used as long as both players agree to using it.

As for the 5 second grenade rule, Ramone mentions a good point. For this cup at least, I believe sticking to what we already know will be wisest. Though the rule is much more flexible now (And I will make this as clear as I can at the start of the first round), due to 5 second grenades being legal with low gravity and/or maximum bounce too.

The suggestion will undoubtedly be considered for future games though. We are by no means in an type of rush to start implementing different rules to games that may conflict with what the players themselves want, so I imagine this type of decision would be best dealt with in a forum poll. Though that's not to say we would have to kill one set of rules all together, and simply adding a variation may serve us just as well.

Like I said, we are in no rush to achieve any advances on this type of subject, so this will definitely be left open to discussion between the forum in the mean time Smile

Ramone wrote:
GreeN wrote:
BnG is messy, so upon the beginning of the first round,
I will strictly state the rules of what is, and what isn't allowed

I'll make it as 'noob'-repellent as I can Wink

c'mon GreeN, we're waiting... Rolling Eyes

Wink
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KoreanRedDragon
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:31 pm

Ramone wrote:
anyway, I couldnt find the NRBnG scheme on FB... the link from your post in FB forums leads to "404 Not Found"...

Yeah, it's basically the same scheme as the one I described in the first post: infinite teleports, no girders, no drill. Uploaded it for your convenience anyway, because I like your avatar:

http://host-a.net/KoreanRedDragon/BnG.wsc

GreeN wrote:
As for the 5 second grenade rule, Ramone mentions a good
point. For this cup at least, I believe sticking to what we already
know will be wisest. Though the rule is much more flexible now (And I
will make this as clear as I can at the start of the first round), due
to 5 second grenades being legal with low gravity and/or maximum bounce
too.

Hm, I guess you're right. Is everyone used to playing with that rule now, then? I mean will my opponent make me hit myself if I bounce a 5 second grenade from behind their worm and back if I won't use max bounce or LG?

GreeN wrote:
The suggestion will undoubtedly be
considered for future games though. We are by no means in an type of
rush to start implementing different rules to games that may conflict
with what the players themselves want, so I imagine this type of
decision would be best dealt with in a forum poll. Though that's not to
say we would have to kill one set of rules all together, and simply
adding a variation may serve us just as well.

Like I said, we
are in no rush to achieve any advances on this type of subject, so this
will definitely be left open to discussion between the forum in the
mean time Smile

Yesh, that's basically what I was aiming for with this thread, get the discussion going, even if it won't affect this first cup yet, then perhaps add a poll to it later on. That FB thread just makes a good starting point for all BnG debates, I feel.
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:12 pm

KoreanRedDragon wrote:

I mean will my opponent make me hit myself if I bounce a 5 second grenade from behind their worm and back if I won't use max bounce or LG?

well, I guess it depends from your opponent... If it's me, I wouldn't demand from u to hit yourself, I would just tell you: " hey! go read the rules on TuT forum in BnG cup poll, u noob!" lol!

ok, srsly, announce rules ne1?
we stick to the rules from CBC site or what?
I'm kinda new here, but this is what I know (from CBC) :

- Sitters are not allowed (Sitters are grenades that sit for 1/4 second
or longer). Penalties for sitters are Grenade or Bazooka yourself
(Same/Nearly Damage than you did).

- Straight zooks to your opponent are not allowed. Shots must take the wind.

If a sitter finishes the game then it's void. Game ending by foul is void.

- You have to readjust your aim every turn. (Except in first shot and firsts shots after moving with teles).

- 5 sec grenades are not allowed; 5 sec nading is only permitted in combination with low gravity.

- 1 sec grenades are allowed.

- Dark siding is not allowed. A darkside is considered a place where you can't hit OR be hitten with a nade. (Screenshots in this case)

- Girders may be used for bouncing purposes only.

- Piling is not allowed.

- It's forbidden to teleport less than half of a screen from your opponent in a 1024 x 768 screen.

- No dead teleports (having low health and teleporting on another worm and killing him with your grave damage).

- 3 faults = lose by default.


so... since there is no page with the strict rules on TuT site, do we legitimate this one? everyone agrees?
GreeN?
Darkmaul?
BigBilly?
Justice department?
lol xD
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:40 pm

Ramone, I have stated it two times already.. I will announce the rules that are to be followed at the beginning of the first round

The rules you have mentioned are relevent to the rules I will state, but I will make sure everything is absolutely crystal clear and understandable when that time comes

We need only a few more players before I can start the cup, so please be patient Smile
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Tue May 20, 2008 1:31 pm

My opinion: I play BnG from 2000, i did a break in 2003 and started again 2 months ago, so i don't remember the exactly rules by that times. But i remember all good BnGers i played used that rules:

Reset Aim All Rounds -> Move aim 90 degrees at least (not the lamming rule like in XTC league "move aim to vertical position" OMG).

5s Nades -> Use it only with LG or LG + MAX, never with MAX bounce only (simply cause a no0b can use that way to do lucky shots taking no care bout sitters).

Don't repeat same shot every round -> If u did a 3s, and always if its possible (if u must do 5s LG to get enemy there's np), then try 4s or 5s next shot.

I know that isn't the real rules, but i always played but that ones, and i think its the better way to get no0bs at BnG outta serious BnGs ;b
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Tue May 20, 2008 6:40 pm

f4st wrote:
Reset Aim All Rounds -> Move aim 90 degrees at least (not the lamming rule like in XTC league "move aim to vertical position" OMG).

What good does doing circles with the crosshair do when you can put it straight up before you start aiming anyway? I don't think those 45°/90° reaim rules do anything in preventing notching and repeat shots. All they do is annoy the people who rely on feeling instead of mathematical systems by forcing them to waste time before they take a shot. Not to mention they're terribly imprecise and hard to enforce; you can never really be sure if you're breaking them.

f4st wrote:
5s Nades -> Use it only with LG or LG + MAX, never with MAX bounce only (simply cause a no0b can use that way to do lucky shots taking no care bout sitters).

If someone has to rely on random bounces to get a hit, you should surely be able to beat them with skilful aiming on your part, right? Why limit the choice of shots in a scheme that already suffers from people doing the same two shots all the time? I love doing 5 second max bounce nades!

f4st wrote:
Don't repeat same shot every round -> If u did a 3s, and always if its possible (if u must do 5s LG to get enemy there's np), then try 4s or 5s next shot.

That's how I play, but by my own choice. If you make this an actual rule rather than just a gentleman's way of playing BnG, you're basically forcing people to not go for the optimal shot every turn, which doesn't sound very competitive to me. And what happens when someone only has a single shot available? Anyway, I think playing with infinite teleports solves this nicely; if you keep being hit with the same shot, you move into a hide that forces your opponent to use another shot.

f4st wrote:
I know that isn't the real rules, but i always played but that ones, and i think its the better way to get no0bs at BnG outta serious BnGs ;b

Not everyone played by these rules in the past, I certainly didn't. The problem today is BnG needs more people playing it, not less, so at least in leagues the scheme should be kept as simple as possible. Vague, hard to enforce rules are what killed the scheme once already, making the competition considerably weaker. If it happens again, it'll be even harder to get newbies excited about it next time.
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Tue May 20, 2008 7:02 pm

Ok thats ur opinion, i still thinking that rules are better for a good and fairy BnGs Wink
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Tue May 20, 2008 7:15 pm

the problem today is that bng is totally over regulated just because some pro ropers get a cry attack when they loose vs some "noob" in a bng game... and this whole discussion doesnt help much either. I know there are some things that gotta be arranged otherwise u try to play as fair as possible and ur opponent takes the lame way. If u have enough skills u ll still be able to win vs some lame playin dude tho Wink

edit: this is like a discussion on how to behave, u cant force every1 to behave good, think about it + note that unexperienced players wont even understand why u call their actions lame coz they play in a style thats adequate to their skill.
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Wed May 21, 2008 9:28 am

KoreanRedDragon wrote:

Not everyone played by these rules in the past, I certainly didn't. The problem today is BnG needs more people playing it, not less, so at least in leagues the scheme should be kept as simple as possible. Vague, hard to enforce rules are what killed the scheme once already, making the competition considerably weaker. If it happens again, it'll be even harder to get newbies excited about it next time.

I actually disagree with this, but i know where your coming from, you should't repeat shots, no matter what, but if i play someone who is doing repeats, i just start notching AND repeating, which basically means they just fucked theirselves.
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Wed May 21, 2008 10:30 am

U stfu Komo u use a program to aim! ;b
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PostSubject: Re: BnG Maps, Rules & Scheme   Thu May 22, 2008 9:35 am

f4st wrote:
U stfu Komo u use a program to aim! ;b

Yes, its called my brain, and i use my thumb to re-aim Wink
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